I am presently doing an online interactive discovery course on Simple House Churches. I posted the following comments on that course's web site and would like to hear what you think.
***************************************************************************
I found all the comments on being alone, being misunderstood by denominations and even that a denomination being supportive all so very interesting.
Here are a few thoughts based on my experiences in Church Planting.
The biggest obstacles to the Body of Christ today are internal:
a) The present day misconception and misapplication of the local church
and b) the present day pastor position.
These 2 points have been polluted over the centuries and have no Biblical support as they are operating today. Dare I say that they may have become tools in the enemy's hands.
Denominations exist because they believe that they are "more" correct in their stances than anyone else and they will support you till they feel threatened by the House Church Movement. The crossroads of who is the authority and issues over money (tithes) cannot be skirted and eventually it must fall on one side or another. Like any other corporation self preservation is paramount and the denomination will not tolerate such radical shifts that threaten their very existence.
With over 30 years of being in a denomination and at various levels of leadership I believe that the denominations and the present day church cannot be reformed and that they shouldn't be but rather than Reformation what is needed is Restoration.
A Restoration to simply being as Biblical as we understand and to be spiritual people being Spirit led.
We do not need to patch old the wineskins and have the skins burst and loose the new wine. We need to have new wineskins (forms? structures? understandings?) if we desire to have this New Wine. The foundations of the present day structures are not Biblicall and will not hold. What is needed is a freshly laid foundation that is based on the scriptures and not on our reasoning.
I am really looking forward to this interactive online course.
Blessings,
Manny
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
8 comments:
I understand what you are saying and we are seeing how people are trying to take the current revelation to make it "fit" in the model that they have. My question that I would have is the following. How would you answer those that say, well there are lives being changed, the Pastor is being used by God, and families being restored, etc. in the denominational model? How is this possible if that model is not being led by the Spirit? Is is that Father will touch His people regardless?
Sheeba
I have read Sheeba's comment and related to all that she said. It is true that God blesses His loved ones, but I believe that is in spite of and not the direct impact of the denomination. The real question is, are they discipling like we have been commission to do?The bottom line is - Is the church reproducing or is it cloning
Sheeba,
Here are a few observations:
1. Jesus never died for an organization He died to restore Father's children back to the Father.
2. The people in the IC are my brothers and sisters but more important they are God's children.
3. Wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His Name He will be present.
I believe that the present concepts and application of the local IC and the pastor are distortions of the original Biblical concepts. This does not mean that God has abandoned His children because they are in an IC. He never abandons anyone and can found wherever His children maybe.
Emphasis is not on whether we are in a H/C setting or an IC setting. The emphasis is whether we are maturing into the direct representation of Father God / Jesus on the earth today. I truly believe that the IC has so may built-in anti-Biblical positions that it would be best to leave and start with a fresh foundation of Jesus. I also have seen people mature quicker and deeper in a H/C family setting.
Just because we acted with a clean conscience as a child does not mean that we are not to walk in deeper revelation and understanding of God's will. This is a matter of maturity and never to become a prideful spirit of division.
Please note that I have been referring to maturity and NOT salvation!
That is why we are never to "chase" after anyone who may be in an IC to "bring them out" as much as we are love each other and be responsible for the ones that the Spirit brings into our spheres of influence.
Thanks for your comments Sheeba.
Rich,
Of course God blesses His loved ones, for His love is unconditional. Just as we bless the ones we love. (Now if we can only learn the unconditional part!!)
Now what we need to do after we reproduce is to walk our spiritual offsprings to a place of maturity.
Rich, thanks for your comments.
Thanks, Manny for starting this. We so need a forum where we can talk about these things.
Sheeba and Rich gave the universal responses to this issue and so a perfect place to begin the discussion.
It seems that we all know what's wrong with the institutional/denominational church. And too often "home churches" end up growing in numbers until they become just another "non-denoninational" church - or they become smaller versions of it with the same old issues. (who's in charge, what songs to sing, where does the money go...)We become encumbered with the needs of organization and our energy goes to that rather than working in our gifts.
If we can move on to, as Manny suggests, being the Church that Jesus established we will have truly restored it.
I think that the reason we have such a hard time doing that is, in a word, laziness. It's much easier to "go" to church where the agenda is planned and serve where someone tells us to. That way we don't have to seek God's will for us each day. We don't have to spend time in prayer LISTENING. We don't have to seek out the body of Christ to find out where we might serve, because we know that folks will be there on Sunday. (even if we don't have time to talk to them!)
Maybe with forums like this we can discover how to connect and become the Body.
Manny, You know I agree with you. We are both among a large number of pastors who are Square no more ;-) However, give us some examples of what you mean by "Reformation". I am sure that all denominations consider themselves to be the new wineskin and biblical. Tell us where they and pastors are wrong.
Hi Peggy,
I agree with your comments. It is very easy to come into a building on Sunday morning and be told what to sing, when to give, and hear a sermon. However, when we are asked to actually hear the Father in what we should or should not say, sing, and do, it becomes a bit more difficult.
I also think that we can connect and discover how to become the Body of Christ by "being" it. When we gather with the family on any particular day or location, we can begin to practice what the Father intended for us to be. This takes practice and it looks different each time. There comes a time when we take the the revelation that Father has given us to practical application in our daily lives.
i.e. When we began gathering in the home, the thoughts in our mind were similar to what you were saying, Peggy. However, as we allowed people like Manny and Stuart to speak into our lives, our thinking and relationship with the Father changed to where we really wanted our gathering to be Spirit led. It was not about a song or a sermon or who was going to lead, but it became about the family. It was about the Holy Spirit directing our hearts in how our time spent together was going to go and continue in the week. This is not to say that we have all the answers. In fact, Father may choose to change it and it may look different in a couple of months. It's ok.
I agree that the Church has and will continue to deviate from the trail that Jesus set. But remember that the Church is us! We have allowed it to happen by reneging our responsibility of loving unconditionally, serving rather than been served, by accepting the World model rather than the Jesus model. The enemy wins from within! As Manny states we all need to mature into restoration. However, I disagree in the statement “What is needed is a freshly laid foundation” because I believe that Jesus already laid that foundation! We need to study and re-engage that which was taught by Jesus himself. That’s the hard part since we live with the easy denomination precept and most are not willing to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:13) We must remember that “the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.” (2Thesalonians 2:7) Just like Jesus started by himself and then he gathered others we must follow that lead and do the same. Realize not everyone will accept change. But we must try!
Post a Comment